Scotty Kilmer comments on the 2.2 ECOTEC
- Thread starter Berto
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KevinH
Senior Member
Not to sure what this guy is getting at, it's just like any other engine really, if you don't service it regularly and use a good quality oil (preferably fully synthetic) then issues are likely to occur.
In fact the GM L61 (Z22SE) engines are regarded as one of the best they have produced. The mistake GM made was setting the service interval at 20,000 miles or once a year for it, when in fact they should have recommended an interim oil change, as indeed Haynes do in their manual (every 10,000 miles or 6 months).
Many owners neglected to check the oil level regularly too, which compounded the issues that the earlier numbered engines had with the timing chain tensioner and oil lubrication nozzle but the chain kits have been revised four or five times to date.
In fact the GM L61 (Z22SE) engines are regarded as one of the best they have produced. The mistake GM made was setting the service interval at 20,000 miles or once a year for it, when in fact they should have recommended an interim oil change, as indeed Haynes do in their manual (every 10,000 miles or 6 months).
Many owners neglected to check the oil level regularly too, which compounded the issues that the earlier numbered engines had with the timing chain tensioner and oil lubrication nozzle but the chain kits have been revised four or five times to date.
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Berto
Regular Member
I like this engine when it works reasonably OK, but "one of the best they've produced"? You gotta be kidding me.
· Frail timing chain gear that will grenade the engine unless you keep a watchful eye and ear on it.
· Defective oil control ring design (no holes for oil evacuation from the groove) that guarantees stuck oil control rings in the long term.
· Defective crankcase evacuation design (no PCV valve, just a metered orifice buried inside the intake manifold, in a location very susceptible to fouling).
IMHO Scotty speaks the truth, for the average customer that does little if any maintenance, like this ...
... long term reliability is a dubious proposition at best.
· Frail timing chain gear that will grenade the engine unless you keep a watchful eye and ear on it.
· Defective oil control ring design (no holes for oil evacuation from the groove) that guarantees stuck oil control rings in the long term.
· Defective crankcase evacuation design (no PCV valve, just a metered orifice buried inside the intake manifold, in a location very susceptible to fouling).
IMHO Scotty speaks the truth, for the average customer that does little if any maintenance, like this ...
... long term reliability is a dubious proposition at best.
KevinH
Senior Member
Then tell us why you have an Astra with a Z22SE engine?
In the video you posted above, please tell us when the oil was last changed on that vehicle.
Let's be honest, that would happen to any vehicle if the owner treated it like that !!!
So "the average customer that does little if any maintenance" should ensure a dealer or reputable garage carries out the maintenance for them, ...simples.
If you neglect to oil the chain on a bicycle it will dry out and break!
My Vectra SRi 150, which I purchased when it was 6 months old in 2001, had covered 103,000 miles on the original timing chain and oil jet before evocarlos installed new timing and balance chain kits in 2014 as shown in the following thread: https://z22se.co.uk/threads/new-timing-balance-chain-kits-fitted.26632/
Therefore a maintained Z22SE even with the older revision timing chain and oil jet will still run perfectly.
In the video you posted above, please tell us when the oil was last changed on that vehicle.
Let's be honest, that would happen to any vehicle if the owner treated it like that !!!
So "the average customer that does little if any maintenance" should ensure a dealer or reputable garage carries out the maintenance for them, ...simples.
If you neglect to oil the chain on a bicycle it will dry out and break!
My Vectra SRi 150, which I purchased when it was 6 months old in 2001, had covered 103,000 miles on the original timing chain and oil jet before evocarlos installed new timing and balance chain kits in 2014 as shown in the following thread: https://z22se.co.uk/threads/new-timing-balance-chain-kits-fitted.26632/
Therefore a maintained Z22SE even with the older revision timing chain and oil jet will still run perfectly.
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corsaZ22se
Senior Member
Great engines that go on for ages if looked after like anything mechanical.
mine got to 117k before i did the chains. had bigger cams from 60k ish to which put more load on the chain.
all was still quiet. only reason they got done was down to poor maintenance by a bad Vauxhall tuner over torquing the spark plugs in a hot engine and cracking the head
sure it would have done way more miles had it not been for that.
regular oil changes is whats needed. my old hand book said 10,000 miles or 6 months. did mine every 5000 miles with 10w40 semi and still do it once a year now as it rarely does more than 1000 miles a year.
mine got to 117k before i did the chains. had bigger cams from 60k ish to which put more load on the chain.
all was still quiet. only reason they got done was down to poor maintenance by a bad Vauxhall tuner over torquing the spark plugs in a hot engine and cracking the head
sure it would have done way more miles had it not been for that.
regular oil changes is whats needed. my old hand book said 10,000 miles or 6 months. did mine every 5000 miles with 10w40 semi and still do it once a year now as it rarely does more than 1000 miles a year.
Berto
Regular Member
As a matter of fact nowadays I own two Z22SE engined Astra Coupes . Decent price/performance beater cars at today's prices.
But I've got a no-bullcrap, zero political correction approach to things mechanical. When I see something that sux, I say it.
... a maintained Z22SE even with the older revision timing chain and oil jet will still run perfectly.
I can attest to that, for the second one I've got still runs OK with the flat head tensioner (and most probably the original chain oil nozzle), 18 years after it left the factory (courtesy of 10K km tops OCIs).
But I'm already enhancing its crankcase ventilation, I keep a watchful ear on timing chains at cold starts, and I know that eventually I'll have to deal with increasing oil consumption from stuck oil control rings.
For the record the second one had 54K km (~36K miles) on the odo when I got it (nice catch). Did a first 1K km "flush" with Mobil 1 0W40, then a second 5K km "flush" again with M1 0W40. At 60K km I'll switch to M1 5W50 FS X1 forever, with 8K km (~5K miles) OCIs.
patricks
Regular Member
I think they are great engines with some MINOR design flaws which can lead to fatal consequences in the hands of idiots. i currenty drive an alfa guilietta 1.4T - id kill to have my astra back. You will only really begin to appreciate how good these engines are when u drive something else lol........
My 03 astra had the flat head tensioner on it - she received 15k services for the first 300k and then 10k services thereafter - talking metric here not imperial (miles). The chain was replaced at 454k. The chain itself was still tight but the chain guide had snapped at the bottom bolt. I attribute that to dumping the clutch at 2800revs and doing 0-100kmh sprints on many an occasion. She started to drink oil at 300k - 600ml per 1000km. I reduced that down to 200ml/1000km by flushing the bores with carb cleaner and when then didnt work putting water slowly into the intake.
The only thing i can agree with there Berto is wrong with these engines is that the chain guides should be made of METAL and plastic lined imo - like like the front chain guide.
My 03 astra had the flat head tensioner on it - she received 15k services for the first 300k and then 10k services thereafter - talking metric here not imperial (miles). The chain was replaced at 454k. The chain itself was still tight but the chain guide had snapped at the bottom bolt. I attribute that to dumping the clutch at 2800revs and doing 0-100kmh sprints on many an occasion. She started to drink oil at 300k - 600ml per 1000km. I reduced that down to 200ml/1000km by flushing the bores with carb cleaner and when then didnt work putting water slowly into the intake.
The only thing i can agree with there Berto is wrong with these engines is that the chain guides should be made of METAL and plastic lined imo - like like the front chain guide.
i dont agree with him i think every post is a dig at the 2.2 engine in general if its that bad move on to a rover engine or ford lol
this post with the vid from scotty its only been posted cause it said there a bad engine but the vid is a known bodge artist lol
the chain sets are fine for the 10 years or 100k miles they are designed for as with all z22se's now there all over the 10years old most have covered 60-80k miles but most have done 100-130k miles so there doing there job for the time listed
the chain setup is also good for up to 1000hp without modification
the oil control rings get gummed up due to the engine being produced in a time where semi synthetic oil was the go to the recommended was 10w40 semi this made the engines dirty inside nothing a regular engine flush and oil changes couldn't fix
not until the z22yh 2004/5 were the cars being recommended to use the fully synthetic oil 5w30
the 5w30 was available way before 2005 but for people with a 2.2 the cost back then was almost £60 for 5l vs the £24 for the 10/40 so you can see why the 10/40 was used
every problem has an explanation not ""its a bad engine avoid it""
this post with the vid from scotty its only been posted cause it said there a bad engine but the vid is a known bodge artist lol
the chain sets are fine for the 10 years or 100k miles they are designed for as with all z22se's now there all over the 10years old most have covered 60-80k miles but most have done 100-130k miles so there doing there job for the time listed
the chain setup is also good for up to 1000hp without modification
the oil control rings get gummed up due to the engine being produced in a time where semi synthetic oil was the go to the recommended was 10w40 semi this made the engines dirty inside nothing a regular engine flush and oil changes couldn't fix
not until the z22yh 2004/5 were the cars being recommended to use the fully synthetic oil 5w30
the 5w30 was available way before 2005 but for people with a 2.2 the cost back then was almost £60 for 5l vs the £24 for the 10/40 so you can see why the 10/40 was used
every problem has an explanation not ""its a bad engine avoid it""
Berto
Regular Member
We guys posting here are petrolheads. We're aware of the flaws, and are prepared and motivated to deal with them.
But the vast majority of users (the "idiots" I guess) don't have a clue. They're defenceless, easy prey to design flaws. That's the audience Scotty is addressing, the automotive illiterate.
I wouldn't recommend a Z22SE engined car to someone who seldom checks oil level, rarely changes engine oil (and then only pours cheap stuff in), keeps flogging it after the chains start to cold-rattle, etc ...
Challenge accepted!!!
IMHO the L61/Z22SE would only have been a candidate to the title "one of the best they have produced" if they had bothered to fit it from the start with:
· Metal timing chain guides plus a reliable tensioner.
· Real oil control rings with holed grooves.
· A better PCV system.
But the penny-pinchers overruled the engineers (even though the engineers knew perfectly what would happen to these engines post-warranty, and had told so to the penny-pinchers).
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patricks
Regular Member
Very unfair that u have two astras and im struggling to find one!!! Can u send pics of the second one??? Unless u live in a warm climate i think u will be hard pressed to do more than 454k on original chain - where i live start up temp for me on a cold morning is about 8 degrees (for about 6 weeks of the year) the rest of the time the oil is sitting in the sump at 15-20 degrees from cold start in the morning. Chain issues with z22se are not as common over here with our warmer climate
Can u send pics of the second one??? Unless u live in a warm climate i think u will be hard pressed to do more than 454k on original chain - where i live start up temp for me on a cold morning is about 8 degrees (for about 6 weeks of the year) the rest of the time the oil is sitting in the sump at 15-20 degrees from cold start in the morning. Chain issues with z22se are not as common over here with our warmer climate
fact the original tensioner was the better one the piston could move out further taking up chain slack for longer the mk3 has a movement limit but also a good thing as it lets you know the chain is slack sooner
the engine was designed to last 3 years 100k miles they did engineer it to do so
and for the oil control ring the is no under piston cooling on a z22se so not a mass of oil that need to be removed like a turbo engine the only oil that is in the bore is whats flicked off the crankshaft so a wiper ring is all thats required and thats what its got
ive personally not seen anyone with pcv system issues ive worked on a couple of z22se's by now and the people i see with tanks i tell them to remove them, fitting one mean you have to periodically clean it out where on the standard setup everything is fed into the engine an burnt off less maintenance it aint broke dont fix it
instead of having all metal chain guides with plastic covers you could just do your chains in the allotted time frame and never have an issue
10years is a long time to not touch the chain set most will do the chains after 10year and about 90k miles so once done then next interval is another 10years and 180k miles the car would be 20years old and the floor dropping out by that time lol
if your desperate to have the holes in the piston ring grooves (change them to forged items)
if your desperate for metal chain guide have some made it would out way the cost of just fitting new ones
if your desperate for a better pcv system make some changes and see no difference probably just the strainers blocked in the rocker cover
in my years with the 2.2 ive pushed the limits of design and found the limits on a few occasions and now made changes to prevent failure
the 3 you keep drumming about ive not changed even up at 400bhp the only 1 changed and thats not cause i wanted or they were ever a problem were the forged pistons and had the holes already in the pistons there more of a requirement now i have under piston cooling
gen2 block failed so i went to a gen1 with a plate i did something about it to prevent future failures the same
KevinH car is proof there not a problem all that milage on the original 2000 chain set no blocked oil jet no broken guides nice clean engine inside tensioner not stuck every engine is built the same from the factory
i have alway put it down to poor owner servicing that causes problem you can hardly point design flaw at that when if treated right with the servicing every 4-6k miles and clean oil they run for years...
the engine was designed to last 3 years 100k miles they did engineer it to do so
and for the oil control ring the is no under piston cooling on a z22se so not a mass of oil that need to be removed like a turbo engine the only oil that is in the bore is whats flicked off the crankshaft so a wiper ring is all thats required and thats what its got
ive personally not seen anyone with pcv system issues ive worked on a couple of z22se's by now and the people i see with tanks i tell them to remove them, fitting one mean you have to periodically clean it out where on the standard setup everything is fed into the engine an burnt off less maintenance it aint broke dont fix it
instead of having all metal chain guides with plastic covers you could just do your chains in the allotted time frame and never have an issue
10years is a long time to not touch the chain set most will do the chains after 10year and about 90k miles so once done then next interval is another 10years and 180k miles the car would be 20years old and the floor dropping out by that time lol
if your desperate to have the holes in the piston ring grooves (change them to forged items)
if your desperate for metal chain guide have some made it would out way the cost of just fitting new ones
if your desperate for a better pcv system make some changes and see no difference probably just the strainers blocked in the rocker cover
in my years with the 2.2 ive pushed the limits of design and found the limits on a few occasions and now made changes to prevent failure
the 3 you keep drumming about ive not changed even up at 400bhp the only 1 changed and thats not cause i wanted or they were ever a problem were the forged pistons and had the holes already in the pistons there more of a requirement now i have under piston cooling
gen2 block failed so i went to a gen1 with a plate i did something about it to prevent future failures the same
KevinH car is proof there not a problem all that milage on the original 2000 chain set no blocked oil jet no broken guides nice clean engine inside tensioner not stuck every engine is built the same from the factory
i have alway put it down to poor owner servicing that causes problem you can hardly point design flaw at that when if treated right with the servicing every 4-6k miles and clean oil they run for years...
KevinH
Senior Member
Scotty talks such a load of BS and as for his advice, well you can take it at your peril !
Have a look at his video below on 'How to replace a brake line on your car'.
Now pause the video at 1:23 exactly and you will see that he advises to use a brass compression fitting connector, which on the packing specifically instructs "NOT for use in Automotive Brake Line Systems".
So when Scotty goes to brake in this car he'll realise that the brake fluid made a 'quit exit' 3 miles back down the road.
(For info, never use compression fittings that aren't rated for brake lines)
This guy really is a comedian and anyone who follows his advice or believes what he says is a real 'moby'.
Have another drink Scotty !
Have a look at his video below on 'How to replace a brake line on your car'.
Now pause the video at 1:23 exactly and you will see that he advises to use a brass compression fitting connector, which on the packing specifically instructs "NOT for use in Automotive Brake Line Systems".
So when Scotty goes to brake in this car he'll realise that the brake fluid made a 'quit exit' 3 miles back down the road.
(For info, never use compression fittings that aren't rated for brake lines)
This guy really is a comedian and anyone who follows his advice or believes what he says is a real 'moby'.
Have another drink Scotty !
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patricks
Regular Member
Saying the engine is designed to do 100k before a cam chain swap is a bit of a cop out. In the old days a chain got loose and maybe a bit rattly but it didnt self destruct the engine. Thats the whole point of having a chain and not a toothed rubber belt - so u dont have to worry about such issues!! There should have had sturdier chain guides from factory IMO.........
Berto
Regular Member
Very unfair that u have two astras and im struggling to find one!!!
Maybe we should explore ways to smuggle a car into Oz?
On second thought however, one of the two likes his steering wheel on the wrong side of the car.
The silver one is currently at dry dock, when it sails again I'll take some pics of the pair.
... Unless u live in a warm climate i think u will be hard pressed to do more than 454k on original chain - where i live start up temp for me on a cold morning is about 8 degrees (for about 6 weeks of the year) the rest of the time the oil is sitting in the sump at 15-20 degrees from cold start in the morning. Chain issues with z22se are not as common over here with our warmer climate
Well climate here around is mediterranean continental, not unlike inland California, mild winters and torrid summers. High HTHS, thicker oil comes handy in our situations.
But from what I've heard some aussies take it a bit to the extreme
:^ Not worth the time and cost on old beater cars. However I may someday drill holes in the OEM pistons like some Saturn guys, for the scientific interest.
^ Not worth the time and cost on old beater cars. If/when chains start to rattle someday then I'll balance repairing or junking the car. Knowing me I'll probably repair DIY.
^ Did it time ago on the red car and are now correcting it on the silver car (the enhanced PCV works like a charm).
Here's another guy exultant about the brilliance of GM OEM PCV systems:
OK, Scotty is a comedian and I'm a 'moby' (whatever that means, guess it's british slang
).Are these guys serious enough?: https://www.ncconsumer.org/news-articles/saturn-l-series-timing-chain-recall-is-inadequate.html
I go with Berto not only the piston and the chain, the Ignition Model CSI too unless there's perfect power balance among the 4 cylinders, there will be misfire and I believe the compression should be more than 170 psi because that's how CSI works it's difficult for the pcm to fire the cylinders in the right time if there's unbalanced power. Add to that the plugs gab should be 1.1mm exactly other wise it will fire advanced or retarded depends on the gab, it's difficult for ordnary people to maintain the engine and even not every mechanic could figure out the problem.
One of the problems is the PCV, I cleaned it but I got misfire because of intake leak where the PCV, it came out it wont seal anymore, the plastic manifold deformed beneath the valve. I had to use a 1.6mm gasket glued to the valve to give it more thickness so it can touch the manifold.
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patricks
Regular Member
Nassa
1. buy genuine spark plugs the spark plug gap is set - u dont have to touch it.
2. The compression on a healthy z22se is between 175-230 psi.
3. You should have replaced the gasket.
The z22se is a great engine but its not perfect - if treated properly it will run and run and run.. If it doesnt - then the owner has only themselves to blame because a well looked after unit doesnt suffer the issues that some have experienced.
1. buy genuine spark plugs the spark plug gap is set - u dont have to touch it.
2. The compression on a healthy z22se is between 175-230 psi.
3. You should have replaced the gasket.
The z22se is a great engine but its not perfect - if treated properly it will run and run and run.. If it doesnt - then the owner has only themselves to blame because a well looked after unit doesnt suffer the issues that some have experienced.
Patricks
I change the oil every 1k km or 3 months 10w40 full synthetic according to holden manual, because I don't use the car that much. The car has 173k, I service the car more than the car service me.
The gasket has been replaced.
Still have misfire on idle but I truly believe it's the oil control rings (173k) even I have 180psi compression on 4 cylinders, I do have oil on spark plug 4.
The preset of ngk triple ground is 1mm in Sydney different standards here.
All I'm saying unless you are from mechanics background it's difficult to maintain the engine.
I respect this site, actually its informative and you guys have great knowledge in z22se, I'm only keeping the car because a huge data available here and I almost changed everything on the engine so maybe I'm getting close to get a good engine as you said.
Watch this oil 1k km only,
I change the oil every 1k km or 3 months 10w40 full synthetic according to holden manual, because I don't use the car that much. The car has 173k, I service the car more than the car service me.
The gasket has been replaced.
Still have misfire on idle but I truly believe it's the oil control rings (173k) even I have 180psi compression on 4 cylinders, I do have oil on spark plug 4.
The preset of ngk triple ground is 1mm in Sydney different standards here.
All I'm saying unless you are from mechanics background it's difficult to maintain the engine.
I respect this site, actually its informative and you guys have great knowledge in z22se, I'm only keeping the car because a huge data available here and I almost changed everything on the engine so maybe I'm getting close to get a good engine as you said.
Watch this oil 1k km only,
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