180 so far Finally made 187

alanoo

Re: 180 so far

Hum... cam timing issue I am almost sure
Will ping some friends to get some advice

Jase_MK

Re: 180 so far

Techie -> Surely if you just popped the 2.2 TB back on and a standard map (fuel leak aside), the car would produce decent power? Although, as alanoo says, the cams are potentially an unknown.

However, for the moment we will not be taking on any more "can you map my car I've got all this on it" as it simply isn't cost effective

Shame, as basically what he's saying is "custom mapping is a bit difficult and all we can really do is upload one of a handful of preset maps off our laptop on your car and hope one of them will work".

techieboy

Re: 180 so far

Hi Jase, I think reverting back to my slighlty ported 2.2 throttle body might be the only short term option (my standard TB is on somebody elses car at the moment). I'll probably have to pull the 2.4 inlet as well as the MAP sensor certainly doesn't like it and keeps dropping me into limp mode. Although, to be fair, the damper I got from Courtenay might still be a possible cure but I only refitted on Saturday about a 2 minutes before I discovered the small lake of petrol on the drive and haven't ventured near the car since.

Assuming TMS will return me to a StageII+ map, it'll be interesting to see what their exhaust manifold has done to the power/torque curves in isolation. Although, if Alanoo is correct about the cam timing potentially being off I might still be sat in a hole with no torque to speak of.

Don't think I'll be making Snetterton next week. 🙁

drpau

Re: 180 so far

techieboy said:

drpau said:
Bloody hell, that is disappointing mate 🙁 I thought the balance shaft removal alone was supposed to be +15bhp? dunno..
Thats a big list and a lot spent mate, I hope you get it sorted cryb..
The torque loss for me with just the 2.4inlet has miffed me enough (all I have in my VX is no precat, 2.4inlet ,K&N induction), in the 3000-4000 ish range it just doesnt pull as well. Soon Im gonna buy a sports cat to help it breath a bit better, hope it will make a bit of difference (I still need to find a willing volunteer to weld it in for me though :lol: ). If Im still not convinced I might whip it off put the standard 2.2 inlet on and properly see which I prefer (that will be a bit of a ballache though).

Yep, disappointing in the extreme. Good luck with yours and hope the cat fixes it for you, although my Milltek system and cat don't seem to have made any difference whatsoever (but again I'm convinced this is more down to Superchips taking the easy option). Even if I returned it to the standard inlet and throttle body, I'm not sure if my new all singing and all dancing custom map will suit that anymore. what..

How about this guy in Blackpool that Slindborg has mentioned for a remap tel.. think it was MSD? Its all more wedge though innit, plus its a trek for you :roll:

Must be a map issue though, Edbutler and Rik got more power than yours with less mods (still with balance shaft and standard flywheel) and no remap at their rolling road (about 168 iirc) and Ed thought it was very conservative RR. notsure.gif

OAKMERE

Re: 180 so far

Very dissapointing can there be a more frustrating engine? dunno..

Hopefully you can get the map sorted can Courtenay do any more with the ECU due to the supercharger developments?

I have to say something seems very wrong with the figures coming out of TMS ant the moment and once again customers cars are providing them with development mules which to me seems wrong. If they didn't successfully map the car then I would expect a substantial discount on there time (or should that be Superchips time as it is they who seem to be doing the work). Before I get the old well they are running a business etc they didn't have to take the business.

OK Rant off

Oakmere

alanoo

Re: 180 so far

techieboy said:
Although, if Alanoo is correct about the cam timing potentially being off I might still be sat in a hole with no torque to speak of.

Feedbacks :
rev limiter too low
torque curve peaking too high = bad inlet cam law (too high duration) making peak power higher than your limiter or inlet cam mistimed (too low crossing)

or too much crossing on both cams which will explain the weak low/mid range perfo AND the curve moving to high RPM (but less than the inlet cam alone for this part).

Well, definitely a cam timing issue for them.

Anyway, regarding the mods you have, your rev limiter is too low too :?

techieboy

Re: 180 so far

Interesting. Thanks for that Alanoo. :?

Rev limit is set at 6850rpm, unless Superchips have altered it. Might try and rescue my old cams from the old head and refit those to see if it improves anything - although I guess that will still mean it needs further mapping which I'm not sure TMS are prepared to undertake.

techieboy

Re: 180 so far

OAKMERE said:
Very dissapointing can there be a more frustrating engine? dunno..

Hopefully you can get the map sorted can Courtenay do any more with the ECU due to the supercharger developments?

I have to say something seems very wrong with the figures coming out of TMS ant the moment and once again customers cars are providing them with development mules which to me seems wrong. If they didn't successfully map the car then I would expect a substantial discount on there time (or should that be Superchips time as it is they who seem to be doing the work). Before I get the old well they are running a business etc they didn't have to take the business.

OK Rant off

Oakmere

Had a word with Courtenay's yesterday and they might be help although I think Muncher's car is first on the list. Jon explained how much of this ECU is still somewhat of a mystery and gave me some insight into why things are a little hit and miss. They'd certainly be easily able to adjust the fuelling to suit the uprated injectors but it's still by no means certain that the car even requires them.

I can see TMS's current point of view on custom mapping and why it's not sustainable from their end. If it really is a case of more by luck than judgement, I can see why mapping times are measured in 10's of hours and not 3 hours like Vocky had with his new ECU which is a known quantity - doesn't make me feel any better though. I'm not sure I'd want to spend the money for 20 hours of dyno time unless I was very sure of spectacular results at the end of it. I understand commercial pressures and development timescales but just wish they'd actually invested some time in testing and developing some of these mods on their old race car over what's fast approaching a year (since Vocky started his tweakery). There's a whole host of people out there desperate for some more power at a reasonable cost (not to mention group-buys etc on inlets/tb's/injectors) and these people are potentially going to run into a dead end at this rate.

It's all fun. 🙁

alanoo

Re: 180 so far

techieboy said:
Interesting. Thanks for that Alanoo. :?

Rev limit is set at 6850rpm, unless Superchips have altered it. Might try and rescue my old cams from the old head and refit those to see if it improves anything - although I guess that will still mean it needs further mapping which I'm not sure TMS are prepared to undertake.

Yes, try that, good idea 🙂

Karlosfandango

Re: 180 so far

Mine is at superchips, still notsure.gif I'm not entirely sure what to expect if/when it gets done having heard techie's experience. What initially was supposed to take a day has now been three weeks and it's only from me chasing that i have any idea of what's going on. A little customer communications on TMS part wouldn't go amiss. The trouble is any tuner is going to have problems with the mapping so for me at the moment I have to bite the bullet and wait. At least it raining 20.gif

OAKMERE

Re: 180 so far

Had a word with Courtenay's yesterday and they might be help although I think Muncher's car is first on the list. Jon explained how much of this ECU is still somewhat of a mystery and gave me some insight into why things are a little hit and miss. They'd certainly be easily able to adjust the fuelling to suit the uprated injectors but it's still by no means certain that the car even requires them.

I can see TMS's current point of view on custom mapping and why it's not sustainable from their end. If it really is a case of more by luck than judgement, I can see why mapping times are measured in 10's of hours and not 3 hours like Vocky had with his new ECU which is a known quantity - doesn't make me feel any better though. I'm not sure I'd want to spend the money for 20 hours of dyno time unless I was very sure of spectacular results at the end of it. I understand commercial pressures and development timescales but just wish they'd actually invested some time in testing and developing some of these mods on their old race car over what's fast approaching a year (since Vocky started his tweakery). There's a whole host of people out there desperate for some more power at a reasonable cost (not to mention group-buys etc on inlets/tb's/injectors) and these people are potentially going to run into a dead end at this rate.

It's all fun. 🙁

Did they mention the fact that they have quoted MartinS with 182BHP with the 2.4l manifold, 4-1 ex manifold, sc injectors and ITG only? It would seem the head work, cams, sc tb and removal of the balance shafts are robbing you of 22 BHP :roll:

Lets hope a tuner will invest the time to test the mods and try and crack the ECU. There must be some money in it with the number of cars running the z22SE Engine.

How can things be so hit and miss with the mapping it is a computer running software luck shouldn't come into it. Why is it I think some of the more knowledgeable people on this site would do a better job if they had access to the Superchips software!

Cheers Oakmere

edbutler

Re: 180 so far

drpau said:
How about this guy in Blackpool that Slindborg has mentioned for a remap tel.. think it was MSD? Its all more wedge though innit, plus its a trek for you :roll:

Must be a map issue though, Edbutler and Rik got more power than yours with less mods (still with balance shaft and standard flywheel) and no remap at their rolling road (about 168 iirc) and Ed thought it was very conservative RR. notsure.gif

Ours only got 158 mate :roll:

AFR's were running about 12.5:1 once in closed loop iirc

drpau

Re: 180 so far

edbutler said:

Must be a map issue though, Edbutler and Rik got more power than yours with less mods (still with balance shaft and standard flywheel) and no remap at their rolling road (about 168 iirc) and Ed thought it was very conservative RR. notsure.gif

Ours only got 158 mate :roll:

AFR's were running about 12.5:1 once in closed loop iirc[/quote]

Ha, I knew there was an 8 involved somewhere :oops: ! N17ves was around the same wasnt he? Still, With what techieb has he should have another 15hp just for the balancer shafting. Shafted!

vocky

Re: 180 so far

techieboy said:
If it every stops raining, I'll push the car out of the garage and have a look to see if there's an obvious leak from the fuel filter/hoses. Probably need the fuel system pressurised to find it though and not overly keen on firing the engine up whilst it's in this condition (read lack of cojones when confronted with red hot exhaust manifold and free flowing petrol).

Not sure it's going to be possible to get any more mapping done, as TMS don't want to touch them due to amount of money they've lost on the three cars they've done. Which is what confuses me, they've had Karlosfandangos's car for more than 3 weeks now, had MartinS's car for a similar period and the same with your's Vocky. But somehow, they've managed to "custom" map my car twice, in two afternoons. Hmmmm!

you only need to switch the ignition on, this pressurises the fuel system. I would start at the fuel rail and work back, check each joint, use some tissue - this picks up moisture much easier 🙂

maybe the cams are standard, that would explain the '160' map what..

vocky

Re: 180 so far

Karlosfandango said:
Mine is at superchips, still notsure.gif I'm not entirely sure what to expect if/when it gets done having heard techie's experience. What initially was supposed to take a day has now been three weeks and it's only from me chasing that i have any idea of what's going on. A little customer communications on TMS part wouldn't go amiss. The trouble is any tuner is going to have problems with the mapping so for me at the moment I have to bite the bullet and wait. At least it raining 20.gif

I'm sure they will get there in the end, very frustrating with the time it takes to map the z22se ecu what..

I don't regret for a second my decision to 'junk' the standard ecu, a fully mapable ecu (currently) is the only way to get the best from the z22se engine :?

n17ves

Re: 180 so far

drpau said:

edbutler said:

Must be a map issue though, Edbutler and Rik got more power than yours with less mods (still with balance shaft and standard flywheel) and no remap at their rolling road (about 168 iirc) and Ed thought it was very conservative RR. notsure.gif

Ours only got 158 mate :roll:

AFR's were running about 12.5:1 once in closed loop iirc

Ha, I knew there was an 8 involved somewhere :oops: ! N17ves was around the same wasnt he? Still, With what techieb has he should have another 15hp just for the balancer shafting. Shafted!

156.3bhp - and that was with no balance shafts and a lightened flywheel (although standard cat and a knacked gearbox at the time which may account for 2bhp :lol: )

I'd probably ditch the 2.0sc throttle body if it causing problems - after looking into this, it would seem the standard throttle body is capable of handling over 200bhp with no restrictions so probably no gains to be had apart from a sharper throttle response (more air under part throttle).

As previously mentioned, I too found that the 2.4 manifold sacrificed the low down torque for high end bhp.

techieboy

Re: 180 so far

vocky said:

you only need to switch the ignition on, this pressurises the fuel system. I would start at the fuel rail and work back, check each joint, use some tissue - this picks up moisture much easier 🙂

maybe the cams are standard, that would explain the '160' map what..

Maybe but that would still put me at a slightly more advanced spec to MartinS's car. My theory is they haven't even tried, as I just can't see how they could have done it in a half day when you compare how long it took them on yours, Martin's and Karl's cars. I'm positive they just fixed the issue of the cold start fuelling which even JT said was wrong and likely to lead to bore wash. TMS fitted the SC injectors and took it over to Superchips who immediately said they couldn't map it, as the fuelling was all over the place - well duh, that's why you're mapping it. TMS then despatched a tech to swap the injectors back out and hey presto, car is magically mapped in a few hours. Would love to see some AFR readings for this new map.

techieboy

Re: 180 so far

n17ves said:
156.3bhp - and that was with no balance shafts and a lightened flywheel (although standard cat and a knacked gearbox at the time which may account for 2bhp :lol: )

I'd probably ditch the 2.0sc throttle body if it causing problems - after looking into this, it would seem the standard throttle body is capable of handling over 200bhp with no restrictions so probably no gains to be had apart from a sharper throttle response (more air under part throttle).

As previously mentioned, I too found that the 2.4 manifold sacrificed the low down torque for high end bhp.

Do you know what kind of torque loss you suffered. Anything in the league of my 20%? Are you running the 2.0SC throttle body or just the 2.4 inlet and a standard/ported 2.2 TB? Rapidly losing track of who's got what and what's working.... :?

techieboy

Re: 180 so far

Karlosfandango said:
Mine is at superchips, still notsure.gif I'm not entirely sure what to expect if/when it gets done having heard techie's experience. What initially was supposed to take a day has now been three weeks and it's only from me chasing that i have any idea of what's going on. A little customer communications on TMS part wouldn't go amiss. The trouble is any tuner is going to have problems with the mapping so for me at the moment I have to bite the bullet and wait. At least it raining 20.gif

Damn. Sorry you still haven't had it back and for fairly well hijacking your thread. :oops:

drpau

Re: 180 so far

techieboy said:

Karlosfandango said:
Mine is at superchips, still notsure.gif I'm not entirely sure what to expect if/when it gets done having heard techie's experience. What initially was supposed to take a day has now been three weeks and it's only from me chasing that i have any idea of what's going on. A little customer communications on TMS part wouldn't go amiss. The trouble is any tuner is going to have problems with the mapping so for me at the moment I have to bite the bullet and wait. At least it raining 20.gif

Damn. Sorry you still haven't had it back and for fairly well hijacking your thread. :oops:

Its all for the greater good though :lol:

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