'Ion Sense' Spark plug coil packs

rabidh

I just found out about this thing called Ion Sense that Delphi do. It looks amazing - basically using the gap in the spark plug to sense the pressure in each cylinder using the resistance between the contacts. That means that the ECU can figure out when peak pressure is, and can tweak mixture and timing to get it at 14 degrees TDC (which appears to be optimum for torque/performance). It looks like the holy grail of tuning really - if an ECU used it then it seems it could set itself up for peak performance without ever having to go near a rolling road.

After some looking around it seems that lots of people use it already (if only as a more reliable knock sensor) - like BMW, Isuzu, and Saab. Does anyone know of a Saab/GM Z22SE-style engine with an Ion sense coil pack? If I could get one that would just clip onto my Z22SE it would be a really fun thing to play with.

thanks,

markv

Do you mean this?

http://www.speedsterclub.nl/bibliotheek ... ie/csi.pdf

Mark

rabidh

Ahh. Thanks! That's a really interesting article. I had no idea that our coil pack did that - I always wondered how we got away without a cam position sensor.

I'm sure you can get quite a lot of information out of the Z22SE coil pack by analysing delays (in fact I think I saw someone had a phd on it), but it does seem different to Ion Sense. The Ion Sense thing appears to actively sense the density of gas when there was no spark, rather than just analysing which cylinder sparked first.

there's a PDF here:
https://delphi.com/shared/pdf/ppd/pwrtrn/gas_ignics.pdf

slindborg

We have a form of that here too.

Basically you need to put a voltage over the electrodes and measure the current that flows. Requires a slightly modded coil pack and ECU (obviously). But its uses are awesome as a pressure transducer so you can run much much closer to the limit and get the most from your engine (even have it self calibrate spark tables like it can do with fuelling)

Unfortunately where I am are a bunch of narrow sighted gits and they wont go play in the aftermarket world 🙁

rabidh

I'm seriously tempted - an aftermarket ECU that sets its own spark timings and mixture tables and doesn't need a cam position sensor would be quite popular I imagine. I wonder what the patent situation is? Do you think it is fine as long as you use Delphi Ion Sense coil packs?

slindborg

Should be ok in that respect as you are using their technology and paid for it... not ripping it off (unless you send them to china for replication lol)
Then develop your own drivers etc to deal with it.

We arent Siemens but we have developed ways to drive siemens diesel injectors etc, all perfectly legal.

rabidh

Cool. I'm cutting down my working week to 3 days come April and spending the rest of the time on hopefully saleable projects, so it is something I will have to seriously consider...

slindborg

use MS as a base. otherwise you are looking at a f*cking long time to develop a stand alone PCM that can run an ETB/ION sense etc

you dont happen to work for one of the automotive software firms in north cambrdige do you? 😉 lol

rabidh

MS?

Are there Automotive software firms in North Cambridge? I hadn't heard of any...

I actually work as a contractor for a software consultancy at the moment. Right after I graduated I worked for Altera though, so i'm reasonably well up on the microcontroller/DSP/digital hardware side. It's just the analogue electrical stuff i'm not very well versed in. I did make myself a mappable digital spark controller for the kit car, but obviously there are a load of quite interesting algorithms i'd have to learn for anything more complex - especially to do with the 'learning' part of it.

slindborg

MegaSquirt... I'm sure it can be messed about with for a base platform.

There are a few automotive software/hardware folks in and around north cambs... Pi and Ricardo for starters.

rabidh

Nice. I had no idea. If I'm looking for employment in the future they sound like they'd be a fun place to go. I actually used to work in the same set of buildings as Ricardo - I can't believe I never noticed them!

MegaSquirt is possible, but the standard board wouldn't be able to read (or analyse) analogue inputs at high speed, so I would need to come up with a separate board and get it to tweak the megasquirt parameters. In reality it is probably best to get a single FPGA to do everything and then I can play to my heart's content, and I could use the interface circuitry that they've already come up with for MS.

... although that all depends how much free time I end up with - which probably won't be much!

slimvince

The Nira is said to be able to use the signal from our CSI-system in place of a cam-shaft sensor. If it can do anything more intelligent than that with it I haven't asked them.
http://niramotorsport.com/index.php?the ... e=i3-index

alanoo

Hum, the CIS (our wasted spark ignition system) and Ion sensing spark plugs have nothing in common !

Ion sense is a knock control technology in which you can VERY precisely detect the very first signs of an upcoming knock at its very beginning.
With this technology you can advance ignition as much as physically possible
It is fitted on the new F430 scuderia for example and.... and the Saab 2.0 turbo derivates of our engines

It is an extremly good technology for performance, but there is no standalone ECU at all that could use these sensors

rabidh

alanoo said:
and the Saab 2.0 turbo derivates of our engines

Ahh. That's what I wanted to hear. That's the Saab 2.0 with the Z22SE block? Will the Saab coil pack fit our Z22SEs, or do we need a Saab head?

alanoo

Don't know

Anyway it is not only the coil pack that does the setup of advance according to the Ion sense sensors, but either it works with the Saab ECU, or it uses a separate controller as in the BMW v10 from the M5
(only the new M3 includes the Ion sense controller in the main ECU)

rabidh

Don't you have a saab head, or is that someone else? does it fit the GM coil pack ok?

I know you need the ECU to work with it - but the whole point was that I was interested in making my own ECU. Usually, even if I made it i'd be useless at setting up the timing and i'd have to go to a rolling road to get it sorted properly. This way, I can just make it learn the correct map for timings and mixture .

Anyway, it is all a bit of a long shot at the moment - I need the time to get stuck into it.

slindborg

I have a Saab head not fitted to the car at the moment....

slimvince

Does anybody know if all vx220:s were made with the same DIS, in respect to the crank signal passing the Delphi ignition unit or not? Looking at the schematics for a 2003 Speedster it does not (at de nederlandse opel speedster club). Could not get my TIS software to work on my PC 🙁 to find out if the earlier model years were (in particular mine that was built 2003 but probably according to 2002 specs).

alanoo

All the z22se/yh and US engines uses the same 7x reluctor ring with the wasted spark DIS, only 2007+ engines are different

slimvince

According to the article, model years up to and including 2001 the crank trigger signal passed through the CSI unit, from 2002 and onwards the crank signal goes straight to the ECU without passing the CSI. I believe this is regardless the number of teeth on the crank? (trigger sensor wheel) - that was changed much later. Noticed that the entire ignition unit (coils and CSI etc) changed part number for the VX220
starting from 11334391 (engine number I would presume?), this might be because vx220:s are different in this respect depending on model year?

I am figuring out how to let the stock ECU coexist with an aftermarket ECU, and (if) the stock ECU needs both cam-pulses (from the CSI) and crank-pulses (either straight from the crank sensor or via the CSI)to stay happy (=not going into limp home mode = still managing the DBW throttle properly) - then I need to know where from to feed it the crank signal as well as cam-pulses. The aftermarket ECU would get its crank-pulse from an additional aftermarket trigger+wheel, and get its cam-pulse from the CSI (split this signal to both ECU:s). Since I will use a SAAB-head, if I still can get the exhaust cams in a desired profile, I can feed the new ECU with the cam-signal from its cam-sensor.

Would be very nice if anybody knows what is needed to keep the stock ECU happy enough to still control the throttle and could share this...

Would REALLY like to know if the stock ECU has any intelligence sitting between throttle and pedal; in order to adjust the accelerator pedal "feel", or to open the throttle slightly when cold starting (in place of a choke) or anything else. Preferably, the stock ECU always opens the throttle as a straight simple response to the accelerator pedal sensor input - without any manipulation - just like you had a cable throttle?

...just thinking out loud here - any feedback is very welcome!