Possible Cam Chain Failure?

Chrism316

[FONT=Tahoma]Hey guys. My first post as a newbie on here.

I bought a 2003 vectra 2.2 Direct auto at lunchtime yesterday for a reasonable price with 77k miles and full service history. On the latest stamp the timing chain had been replaced by the trader I bought it from. By 10pm yesterday (Only 10 hours after buying it) it broke down! It started by loosing power on the A1M and started making quite a few nasty noises from the engine bay, I was doing 70MPH at the time so I don't recall what kind of noises. At first I was worried that it was the auto box, because it seemed to be jumping in and out of drive to me, however I limped it off the motorway at around 20mph as I was on a stretch of motorway with no hard shoulder or verge. As soon as I could stop I did and turned the engine off but noticed it was clattering like a diesel, got out the car and noticed oil splatters all up the bonnet, bonnet grille, windscreen and bumper grille, then noticed quite a bit of fresh oil build up underneath the car by the drivers side front wheel suspension components and timing chain cover but none on the floor. I opened the bonnet, and nothing seemed to be different, it was still nice and clean, there wasn't any oil or anything but I did notice a very strong smell of burnt oil. I tried turning the engine over and it started but sounded like a tractor and struggled to idle after releasing the key from the starting position, I thought that was enough to see that it was kaput and turned it off again. I got recovered an hour later and the recovery guy suspected timing chain failure, but he didn't even lift the bonnet :S My question is, why would there be oil literally all over the exterior of the front of the car, and all over the inside of the drivers side front wheel if the timing chain had broke/slipped. Does it sound like a timing chain problem from my description? If so, where has the oil came from? I'm highly disappointed, especially after owning the car for less than 10 hours! Do you think I have a leg to stand on by asking for my money back? From what I have read so far, not many z22yh's have survived after experiencing timing chain failure.

Many thanks

Chris[/FONT]

vocky

sorry to hear of your problem so soon after buying it.

It sounds more like the big ends have failed as timing chain failure normally stops the engine dead.

Either way I would be speaking to the seller asap.

Chrism316

Well I decided to go out and start it this morning, and it started absolutely fine, no noises or anything. Then I tickled the throttle and some nasty noises came, like a whirring and tapping noise, but only when the engine was revved. Idle it sounded absolutely perfect, to say the least I didn't run it very long. I looked underneath the car, and there is a spraying of oil on the floor, like it's been on a chain or belt. Does anyone think it could just be an oil seal burst?

Thanks

IDI_AMIN

From what you have described it sounds more serious than a burst oil seal vocky is more than likely correct as he is an experienced mechanic

vocky

it could be the oil pressure relief valve is stuck or the balancer chain tensioner has failed, you need to get it towed to a garage to investigate the problem before something worse happens (the fact it starts and idles okay means the problem might be easier to fix)

Chrism316

I've spoken/had several arguments with the guy I bought the car from today, and he didn't want to know. Brushed it off with stuff like you bought it 'sold as seen' and it was running perfectly fine when you drove it away etc. I got in touch with trading standards and they basically said I don't have a leg to stand on because I didn't get a receipt to prove I bought the vehicle from him. I managed to arrange for a mobile mechanic to come out today and investigate it and he seems to think that the timing chain has slipped one or two teeth and thinks the chain guide is catching on the chain, and because of that it's burst the camshaft oil seal. The engine has brilliant compression and starts straight away, but he does seem to think the timing might be out ever so slightly and the camshaft oil seal has failed. He also mentioned a tensioner, when the engine was revved to no more than 1500rpm he noticed all the vibrations were coming from the top front of the timing chain cover, is there a tensioner there? I did notice when I broke down, the top of the engine was only warm, not hot to touch, I had drove it for around 5 miles before it broke down and I'm sure the temperature gauge was exactly in the center at 90 degrees C. Surely it should be hot, and not be able to touch? It was around -2 outside at the time so maybe the wind on the motorway cooled it? I'm just thinking, if the big end had gone would this stop oil circulating around the engine? Anyway, the mechanic has quoted £350 to supply and fit the full timing chain kit and repair the camshaft oil seal, does this seem reasonable? Apparently the timing kit is £210 by its self. How long does this job expect to take?He seemed a bit dubious in case there is damage within the engine and didn't seem very optimistic to do the job. He also stated that he could get it to bits and find out something totally different, but wouldn't be able to find out until it was dismantled. Could the oil from the camshaft oil seal have burst over the timing chain and therefore knocked it out of line, or knocked the guides out of line, or broke a tensioner?

Thanks guys

Matt

Timing chain kit from us is only £174.99 for a genuine GM kit. Have a browse through our shop (link at top of forum)

Daz

This engine does not have any camshaft oil seals.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

cavaddict

Was it the crankshaft seal maybe?

Chrism316

cavaddict said:
Was it the crankshaft seal maybe?

Apologies, that sounds correct. Is this bad that it's blown this? Thanks

vocky

that is a good price to replace the chain kit, the crank seal is about £10 (quite a common seal to leak).

if the chain tensioner has failed then the chain would slip, you seem lucky that it's slipped the good way (no valve damage) rather than the other way (bent valves).

It is about four hours work

Get the guy to repair it and hopefully you can then enjoy it 🙂

Chrism316

Ahhh thank you vocky, I feel a lot better thinking there is a possibility of it being alright after changing the timing chain. I've been in touch with the trader who i bought it off, he still doesn't want to know but he mentioned the timing chain kit he fitted was from eurocarparts, after doing a bit of research they only use the cheapest of the cheapest kits which the z22 in general doesn't like at all? He also mentioned that the shaft balance stuff had been changed at the same time. I do think however he only bought the cheap kit, which I believe doesn't include the tensioner, the more expensive kit includes the original tensioner, not the NET tensioner from what the guy at eurocarparts was saying. I hoping the mechanic can squeeze my car in on Monday, only thing is the car is still in Newcastle, and I'm back in the Lake District where I live so it's becoming a bit awkward. I'll try and keep you guys up to date. By the way, before I forget to mention, GREAT website guys! 🙂

Chris

Chrism316

vocky said:
that is a good price to replace the chain kit, the crank seal is about £10 (quite a common seal to leak).

if the chain tensioner has failed then the chain would slip, you seem lucky that it's slipped the good way (no valve damage) rather than the other way (bent valves).

It is about four hours work

Get the guy to repair it and hopefully you can then enjoy it 🙂

What's the likelyhood of both of these things happening at the exact same time, are they related? Cheers

vocky

it might be where the car has been pressure washed and left wet, the crank pulley then rusted and damaged the oil seal after a few miles of driving

Chrism316

vocky said:
it might be where the car has been pressure washed and left wet, the crank pulley then rusted and damaged the oil seal after a few miles of driving

Ahh, the car was sat for a few months and the engine bay was pretty much spotless so that might be a possibility of that happening. I'm just worried about having to pay out for the cam chain to be changed to find a shit tun of damage to the engine that was totally un-related to the cam chain slipping haha.

Thanks guys

Chrism316

Well the car's in the garage today, so we'll see what damage has been done. He quoted £320 for the timing chain to be fitted and supplied as well as an oil change and the crankshaft seal. Seems pretty good that 🙂 I've just got a gut feeling there's something going to come up with then engine once he's stripped it all down. Cheers

Matt

Hope it all goes OK

Chrism316

Well I spoke to them earlier on and they said when they took it apart the cams were loose, a million bolts were loose and the inner balance chain (?) was extremely loose and black. Apparently there's no oil pressure but that could be because the oil jet was blocked and the crankshaft oil seal is broken. The guy i bought it off advertised it with the balance chain been changed so I never suspected it but apparently that's the culprit, and it's never been changed. The oil is really black, thin and stinks of petrol, what would be the reason for this? Like I said he's going to change the oil anyway. When my friend was following me when i bought it he commented on the strong smell of oil it was kicking out whilst I was accelerating, is that common on the z22yh?

Thanks
Chris

Sjdickso

Just hope the repair all goes well.

Chrism316

Well, it didn't go as expected 🙁 They changed both chains and tensioners and what not, put it back together and it made the exact same noise, rattling and banging like mad. So they thought it could be the bottom end and took the oil sump off to find a million shards of metal and huge lumps of plastic in the bottom of the sump blocking the oil pipe going to the oil pump. It turns out the 2" lumps of plastic were the old timing chain guides from the first timing chain (it's now on it's third). He reckons the previous owner got the car when the chain had snapped and just put a new chain on without investigating further and without replacing the secondary chain. We cleaned the sump out of all the metal and plastic etc and give it a jetwash to get rid of the very metallic and black oil that was fresh a mere 30 minutes ago and put it back together again, the same noise and a bit of a lumpy idle, I personally thought it was worth a shot. The mechanic reckons the oil pump is now goosed because of sucking in all the debris, he did mention there was no oil pressure beforehand. He also saw oil coming out of seals where the oil pump is situated on the left side bottom of the engine. Does this sound right? The oil pump could be the culprit? This bill is getting bigger and bigger now, and I've had to call work and tell them I can't get there until tomorrow, working in the Lake District and being in Newcastle with a broken car is not good. Please does anyone have any more input?

Thanks
Chris.