Oil in water. Head Gasket? Oil Cooler leak?

[LPG-Fan]

I figured it best to start a new thread rather than hijack someone else's (apologies if this was the wrong choice!).

I've had my z22se powered Vectra B for 11 months. It had an LPG conversion already fitted when I bought it.

Not long after I got it, I noticed that the temp needle was off the bottom of the scale regularly. I tracked it down to a dodgy thermostat, so it was over-cooling on the motorway, and only coming up to full temp on slower roads. I took it in to be repaired, and they discovered that there was no thermostat at all! They fitted a generic one (rather than a Vauxhall part), since the engine had clearly already been modified to bypass the the missing thermostat... they they just popped a standard unit back into the pipework.

Since then, the car has been doing better miles par gallon (as I expected), since the engine is now running at the correct temperature. However, I've also noticed that the car is consuming much more oil and my dad said he'd be suspicious as to why the thermostat had been removed in the first place (with hindsight they look to wise words).

Come the winter, I also noticed that the coolant was very low (took about 2½ litres to top up). Been having to regularly top it up since then. Last time I refilled it, I noticed oil in there too, so stopped driving it and booked it into the garage.

They thought it sounded like the head gasket, but then changed their minds and did some pressure tests, and found some water leaks which they fixed. They flushed the coolant until running clean again gave it a final pressure test, then gave the car back. I've driven it for two days, and then thought I should check the coolant to be sure. It was full of oil!!! So my coolant looks like a gun metal grey colour. I checked the oil filler too, and there is a bit of cream and water drops, but that could be condensation or leaked coolant!

So I've spoken to the garage again and they still don't think it is head gasket, more suspecting there might be a leak in the oil cooler... although they said they need to speak to their expert and get back to me tomorrow. So I'm seeking some other opinions here.

It drives totally fine. No loss of power or judderyness.

I suspect that the problem only shows itself when the engine gets hot, and that a disreputable garage has removed the thermostat to disguise the problem before I bought it, which was of course reversed when I got the thermostat refitted. I think the coolant leak (which they fixed last week) compounded the problem and accelerated the coolant loss.

Does this sound like the head gasket? Oil cooler leak (if this engine has such a thing)?

Anyone recommend an expert garage on these engines near Hertford, Hertfordshire, who know what they are talking about but don't cost the earth?

Thanks for reading.

Mike

ps apologies if I wrote too much... or if I missed anything important out! If you need more info just ask.

 

[vocky]

head gasket failure is very rare, the head cracking is very common

it could be the thermostat was removed to stop the pressure build up, it might be worth using some rad weld as this has been known to fix some cracked heads, but only a temporary fix

 

[JohnnyN]

No oil coolers on these engines. Oil coolers were fitted to the vx220 but its an external unit seperate from the engine.

 

[LPG-Fan]

Thanks guys

Is there a definitive way to detect whether it has a cracked head? (compared to other similar problems it could be including head gasket?)...

If it was a cracked head, would that need a new engine? A complete rebuild? Or just a new top? What sort of cost (ballpark range will do) to put right?

So the Vectra doesn't have an oil cooler either internally or externally, so it can't be that. Is that correct?

Thanks for the info.

Anyone know any reliable garage near me that might be able to take a look and give me a definitive answer?

Mike

 

[JohnnyN]

As above, no oil cooler on the Vectra, Astra or Zafira z22se engine, inside, outside nor upside down.

 

[LPG-Fan]

Thanks... that actually helps me a lot! If the garage come back to me tomorrow suggesting it is the oil cooler, having spoken to their expert, then I'll know they don't know what they are talking about!!!

Of course narrowing down things it isn't helps reduce the number of things it can be... but I'll still need to track what it is instead...

Any thoughts on detecting whether it is a cracked head or a head gasket? I think I was quoted about £580 +VAT for head gasket.... would that sound reasonable? What would cost to sort out a cracked head?

Thanks guys

Mike

 

[JohnnyN]

Heads have been known to crack in plug number 4. When removing the spark plug, if it's very tight or the engine is warm, sometimes the plug thread cracks and this runs right next to the water jacket.

A compression test can help diagnose a head failure. Also a dye test can detect too.

As to if it's a cracked head or head gasket failure, the head will have to come off either way. If the gasket is gone then it's a case of replacing and skimming the head. If the head has failed then it'll be repairing the crack with a weld if accessable, reassemble valves etc. then skim and new gasket. In worst case it'll be a new head. In this case it would be an idea to source a used one.

 

[LPG-Fan]

So either way it is shouldn't be "goodbye car" or "goodbye engine".... (ust "goodbye lots of money"!!!)

That is at least reassuring... if only slightly!

Am I best looking for someone with experience of this specific engine, or can any garage handle this? I normally use an LPG specialist who are very good, but he had to outsource this last job to someone I've never used before because he was (and still is) too busy to handle it himself (unless I'm prepared to wait 4 weeks!). This means I'm less sure about the way forwards, since I don't have my regular garage to fall back on. Too many garages seem to not know anything about this specific engine, which concerns me slightly...

Mike

 

[MikeS]

most garages dislike working on it

 

[LPG-Fan]

When you say pressure test... I assume you mean both testing the coolant system, but also testing each combustion chamber in turn, thereby checking where the leak is.

Is the dye test, the one that looks for CO2 in the coolant (or something like that) and it changes the colour of the dye if detected so you know that the combustion gases are getting into the coolant system somewhere.

Is it possible that the leak is purely coolant and oil based, but not involving a combustion chamber (since it is handling completely normally)? Presumably that would not be likely to be a cracked head in that instance, but more likely a gasket issue? Is that correct? In that case, I'd expect to the see a leak of pressure on the coolant system (maybe only when engine is hot), but no leak on any chamber, and no CO2 in the dye test.

I'm definitely going to need someone I can trust to take a look at it and give me a verdict.... so if anyone knows a place they'd recommend within 20 miles of me, then drop me a reply.

I'm assuming that the head work we're talking about is normally worth doing, and that the engine is still good after this sort of work. The last thing I'd want to do is spend a lot of money on getting it all sorted, only to find that the car is never the same again, and wish I'd cut my loses and changed cars instead!

Mike

 

[LPG-Fan]

OK. I haven't had it back to the garage yet, but a lot has happened verbally in the last few days to clarify the current situation... I now need to decide what to do with this information!

So here's the update:

I spoke to the garage who found and fixed the coolant leak. They confirmed they'd already done pressure tests on the cooling system and also had pressure tested each combustion chambers. No dye test done, but unlikely to turn up the problem since it is smooth running and appears to only affect water and oil systems. In discussing what it might be, they said it was most likely a cracked head (since this model doesn't have an oil cooler), and to be only between the oil and water systems. Interestingly, he suggested trying to track down the previous owner to see if my suspicion about the thermostat being removed to disguise the problem he sold it for...

So I did some Google searching, and actually found the guy, and sent him a Facebook message. He turned out to be a top bloke and phoned me, and gave me a 30 minute chat about the history of the car and its troubles!

He had LPG fitted. Top kit fitted at £2500!
Roll on a few months, then had timing chain failed in action. Car fixed at great expense.
Roll on less than a year timing chain failed in action a second time! Again fixed at great expense including welding a cracked head this time!! (Significant!!!)
Roll on two months and the coolant is full of oil! (Exact same problem I have). So he took the car back to the dealer saying it must be not fixed properly, they said they'd only look into it as a warranty claim if he was prepared to pay the £1300 to fix it if it turned out to be not their fault. Having spent £5500 (my estimate) on the all the above in less than 2 years, he decided he was sick of the car and wanted shut of it instead cos he couldn't stomach the risk of spending any more money on it even if it was almost certainly a warranty job! It almost certainly was just the weld not held that would've been fixed by the warranty on the job, but he part exchanged the car with a dealer to put the whole saga behind him.

Between him selling it and me buying it, one of the garages has removed the thermostat which disguised the problem, since the cooler running engine doesn't expose the leak! (As didn't the pressure test on the coolant system, or the 40 miles of test driving they did).

So, almost certainly the problem is a badly welded cracked head caused by a previous snapped timing chain that wasn't fixed properly.

So I'm tempted to put it in for repair but look to get a donor head in instead of getting the crack re-welded, since I'm told welding alloy heads is always potentially hit and miss. If it ends up being the block, then it is still just about worth getting done, again with a donor block rather than welding. The only issue would be if it is stripped down, head is replaced, but it turns out to be the block as well after it is all rebuilt... which would add a LOT to the labour bill to be stripping a second time. So I will need it to be fixed first time whichever it is (head or block).

I need to sort it for as cheap as possible, but equally don't want the false economy of a short term fix....

My fall back position is to remove the thermostat again and run the car until it dies, which might be a few years off even! This would take a hit on fuel efficiency (negating the cost benefit of it being LPG), but would reduce the oil consumption and keep the coolant effective and stop it being polluted by oil. I'm not keen on this solution, but equally, it is probably a much better bet than replacing the car immediately if the repairs look to to not worthwhile.

I think the cost of a refurnished engine would probably be a step too far cost wise... but I need to get some accurate quotes on the various scenarios so I can decide how much is too much!

The car is still running beautifully right now. No problems from the driving or engine running... just problems with the coolant contamination and oil leak.

Suspect the "cat" might be on its last legs too, which would add to the cost, but it'd probably cost me £2000+ to replace the car, and I might get one that had similar unknown problems waiting in the wings! So if I can patch this one up, it could still be much more cost effective and I know all the jobs that have been done recently.

So, some questions....
If it was your car, would you pour any more money into it?
Would you get the head replaced rather than welded?
Where is the most economical and reliable place to source a donor head or block... (or even a full engine)?
The leak is probably a heat related expansion in the bad weld, but could it also be engine torque exacerbated, eg more likely to show when revved hard (other than the extra heat generated)?
Any other thoughts I should consider?

I am going to phone the garage tomorrow to get some estimates of the various outcomes to refine my decision, so any info before then would really help me to choose the way forwards.

Thanks for sticking with me on this (especially through this LONG update)!

Lots more I could have said, but trying to keep the length of post from getting ridiculous! If you need more info just ask.

Thanks again

Mike

ps... also bare in mind, that before I knew the history, I also got Benny to do the timing chain on this car (eg which turns out to be the 3rd in two years!) and he said it was up to me if I went ahead, since he could see it had been replaced, I gave go ahead and afterwards he said I'd made the right choice, as the tensioner was in a state (never seen one like it!) and so was likely to have also failed early! But at least I know this has been done recently.

 

[vocky]

I think the guy was a member of this site, I seem to recall a car with the above issues notsure.gif

two options

1 - rad weld = short term fix

2 - new head = fix

 

[LPG-Fan]

Does the rad weld cause other problems though? Eg does it tend towards gunking up other bits that are not meant to be blocked? In other words, if I used it to buy me some more time while I saved some money, would it potentially make the job more problematic in the future when I finally got it done?

Thanks for the frank options. That helps a lot.

I might have a search to see if I can find a thread from the previous guy... Thanks for the heads up...

Mike

 

[BURT150]

Id save your money and get a new head or good second hand head and get yourself a haynes manual and follow it step by step and go for it yourself

The head you have on at the min id say the weld has cracked and will expand with heat, When summer time comes round it will be dodgy using that head.

 

[LPG-Fan]

Hmmm... I was wondering that myself...

I do already have a Haynes manual, but I think I'd be a bit worried about doing it myself on a job that size, and the LPG kit on there makes it a bit more scary again!

I'll read the book and see how difficult it looks though (several "4 spanner" rated jobs in a row!). They have ready to go "fully reconditioned heads" on Ebay for around £500 ish which whilst more than I was hoping to spend on the head, would be potentially OK, if I was able to do all the labour myself.

I fix computers for a living, but I do have a degree in Mechanical engineering... (that I've never really used!!!). I tend to undertake the 1, 2 or 3 spanner rated jobs in a Haynes manual. I'll do the occasional 4 spanner job if it sounds OK-ish, but have so far chickened out of most 4 spanner and all 5 spanner jobs!

I think this job would be beyond me...

Mike

 

[JohnnyN]

You'll be fine Mike. Go for the new/recon head route. Get it fixed once and for all!

thumbup

 

[LPG-Fan]

I think rightly I'd be worried about messing it up, and it costing much more... but also how long I might end up with the car off the road for.... the stress would probably kill me too :wink:

If anyone knows someone within a 30 mile (ish) radius of me, who could do an excellent job on this car for a reasonable fee, then let me know!

My current hunch is to get a reconditioned head (preferably one with a warranty), and get it fitted by someone (not me).

Anyone know how much a NEW head would cost compared with reconditioned? Can you get them?

Thanks for all the help everyone...

Mike