Box of Tricks Thread

Karlosfandango

It's getting to the point that unless someone sorts a workable solution for the 2.4tb then I'm going to have to miss the rolling road day. The car is running like a bag of shit at the moment and hasn't been used for about a month, purely because of this mythical solution that's coming. There is just no power as it stands and the idle is interesting.

My problem is that I can get the car mapped as is which costs X, but if the tb becomes viable then to get the best out of it I will have to have another remap which seems a little excessive. I can't in all honesty see me being able to get the car sorted in time for the rolling road on the 1st of March unless miracles happen in the next few days.

So, what is the current situation? If I can't take the car on the rollers I'm hoping to still come along, especially if I can swipe the magic box of Johnnys car :evil:

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Lightning_Coupe

why cant you just use the original Throttle body for the RR?

Sjdickso

As above?

How does the car run with the stndard TB and 2.4 mani?

I too am waiting for a part to gain some BHP which i would love before the RR day but it isnt going to happen. Does your car really have to have the 2.4 TB on to go on the rollers?

Karlosfandango

At the moment I have the 2.2tb on a 2.4 manifold which was fine-ish. As I had a mapped car before fitting anything (TMS Stage 3), the mods won't work together very well. The car was driveable but it didn't have the power before fitting the manifold. I tried the 2.4tb but the car spat the dummy and cut out if I tried to rev above 3k so put the 2.2 tb back on.

As I have the schrick cams and ported head I was a little concerned that I may end up running lean so have fitted the sc injectors. It seems that the current stage 3 map i have is causing the car to run quite roughly with the manifold and injectors. The idle isn't good and there is no power above 5k but at least it doesn't cut out. The only thing I haven't tried is fitting the 2.4 tb onto the 2.4 manifold with the sc injectors.

I need a remap, similar to what Vocky has in order to get things running correctly. I can't justify a £300 remap only for the 2.4 tb to be sorted a week later and then have to have another remap once it is fitted.

JohnnyN

Be patient mate. I've been without my car for nearly 3 months for the developement of this item. 2 companies in Germany have been working flat out on this. I spoke to Jon on Friday afternoon and its in the post to Courtenay. As soon as it arrives they will be fitting it and testing it on the car.

NO ONE else has come up with any solutions. No other tuner has bothered to go to the lengths that Courtenay has over this issue. If Jon says it will be done then I'm with him.

;-)

Karlosfandango

Waiting isn't really a problem, it just seemd to go a bit quiet. I just hope that whoever has made one has made a few more aswell😉 I'm sure courtenay are on top of things, it's all this sunny bloody weather that isn't helping, why can't it rain for a couple of weeks to make me a bit happier.

JohnnyN

How far away are you from them?

As for sunny weather, just thinks of me sacrifiicing my car in the name of science and having to go everywhere on a 50cc Gilera scooter! (Even in the -5`C at 5:30am going to work!!)

pmsl..

xinitialz

JohnnyN said:
2 companies in Germany have been working flat out on this

do u know wich ones?

JohnnyN

Stephan Klasen (Klasen Motors) and Hartmut Neitzel at HITEC Automotive GmbH.

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A11VXL

TB device

Just to let you know with an update. We have made one device unfortunately our requirements got slightly lost in translation, so the electronic damping was made at full throttle, not part throttle :roll: However a new version is made and is winging its way to us as I type. Once we know this unit works we will be getting a batch made.

Cheers Jon

Lightning_Coupe

Thankyou for the Update Jon, and thanks for attempting a solution to the problem in the first place! Can you tell us why the 2.4l TB dosent work and what the electronic damper does? I'd love to understand it better.

A11VXL

Lightning Coupé said:
Thankyou for the Update Jon, and thanks for attempting a solution to the problem in the first place! Can you tell us why the 2.4l TB dosent work and what the electronic damper does? I'd love to understand it better.

No problem here goes...

The problems are at part throttle. At wide open throttle there is not a problem so we have been able to see the benefit in terms of power from the 2.4 throttle body hence why we have been pursuing a solution.

With the 2.4 throttle body fitted there is much more air entering the manifold which the map sensor reads. The problem is that the sensitive - clever- bloody annoying (delete as required :razz: ) Delphi ECU, measures this extra air and through its internal logic, says how can I have this much air mass at for example only 40% throttle opening.
As this air mass is above the value programmed by the engineers within the ECU that the 2.2 thottle body can achieve, it thinks that there is error within the throttle body.

At this point the ECU locks out the throttle and puts the engine into limp home and puts on the EML. In fact it’s worse than that as you loose the throttle completely, which is not good as all of a sudden you have no
no drive.

I hope this helps

Jon

Karlosfandango

Thanks for the reply. Makes interesting reading and the cutting out part was especially fun out on the open roads.

You don't need a Vx with Schrick cams, head work, itg, milltek, 2.4 manifold and sc injectors to play with do you?? 😉

As soon as the 2.4 problem is sorted I'll be wanting mine fitted along with an appropriate map.

Cheers

Karl

Lightning_Coupe

Thanks Jon! Thats great. We kinda had a feeling that was the problem and now youve confirmed it. I'm guessing theres no way of re-writing the ecu to work round it so your fitting some form of signal conditioner to fool it. Ill keep my fingers crossed all goes well with the prototype. Can you put me down for one once youve got it all sorted. Thanks! seya on the 1st. Adam

A11VXL

Lightning Coupé said:
Thanks Jon! Thats great. We kinda had a feeling that was the problem and now youve confirmed it. I'm guessing theres no way of re-writing the ecu to work round it so your fitting some form of signal conditioner to fool it. Ill keep my fingers crossed all goes well with the prototype. Can you put me down for one once youve got it all sorted. Thanks! seya on the 1st. Adam

You can re-write this within the ECU, however you need a full damos file and function frame to do this, as this factor is in the base protocol and cannot be found by emulating( runnning the car with the ECU hooked up and watching where the ecu moves to)
To get a damos file costs many £1000's thats if you can find a Delphi engineer willing to risk his job by selling it to you!! :shock:

JohnnyN

Karlosfandango said:

You don't need a Vx with Schrick cams, head work, itg, milltek, 2.4 manifold and sc injectors to play with do you?? 😉

Karl

No, bugger off, he's already got mine!

:lol:

Thanks for your call today Jon, much appreciated!

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slindborg

hmmmm maybe I should take up that contract role at delphi lmao.

So in short you are going to have the 2.4 TB opening enough to run the engine at part throttle, technically enough to flow the prescribed/expected air for a given rpm/load etc. Then belt it open to full throttle when needed?

n17ves

slindborg said:
hmmmm maybe I should take up that contract role at delphi lmao.

So in short you are going to have the 2.4 TB opening enough to run the engine at part throttle, technically enough to flow the prescribed/expected air for a given rpm/load etc. Then belt it open to full throttle when needed?

I don't think the plan is to alter the way the 2.4 TB operates...... I understood the box of Trick is to alter the signal from the MAP signal because of the pressure loss caused by fitting the larger throttle body. This is whats causing the upset with the ECU because its outside its running parameters.

I guess the complicated part is using a capacitor to get the MAP sensor to mimic the results of the 2.2 TB under the various different throttle positions.

Interestingly this problem isn't caused with the SC TB - wonder if its more restrictive than the 2.4 TB??

JohnnyN

The 2.4 T/B is 65mm diameter and the 2.0 S/C T/B is 68mm diameter. Work that out then??

slindborg

iirc the 2.2 uses an FMAF (frequency maf) which isnt a case of simply banging some caps/resistors on there to alter the way it behaves.... hence some electronics and more importantly software to mod the MAF signal if this is the case